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 | F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 411 Goshen, NY 
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2003-10-07 65744
Does anyone else have a problem with the current Winston Cup scoring system? How is it that a guy who wins 8 races or roughly 25% of ALL the races is behind the guy in frist whose wona grand total of 1?. I mean how hard is it to win 8 races thes days..it's HUGE.
I know the answer and I think it stinks. I am not a Ryan Newman fanatic nor do I dislike Kenseth or any of the drivers in between in the standidngs ( alright maybe Gordon)
The winner of a NASCAR race pockets 175 points. From there the points given decline in five-point increments for places two through six, points awarded drop four points per driver for positions seven through 11 and three-point increments separate drivers' points for finishers in 12th place or lower.
2nd place: 170 points 3rd place: 165 points 4th: 160 points 5th: 155 points 6th: 150 points 7th: 146 points, and so on
What sport rewards the second place finisher with almost the same reward as the winner? I win(first) you lose(second) and I only gain a 5 point edge in a 175 point score...that's garbage. Add in the points for leading laps, leading the most laps and IT GETS WORSE.
This is the part that makes it even worse "Drivers who lead a lap earn five bonus points.... The driver who leads the most laps in a single event earns 10 bonus points". Now it get's even more messy, if I win and get 175 + 5 bonus points I end up with 180 points, you lose get 170 points for 2nd place plus you led the most laps so you get 10 more for a total of 180. I won but we're tied, what motivation is there for you to try a last lap pass? I think there should be points for leading laps but it should not be CLOSE to equalling or even ECXEEDING the diff. between positions. This isn't the Winston Cup championships it's the get your car on the TV the most championship. I don 't care how many laps or innings you lead it's all about who's ahead at the end of the 9th or the race. If you're looking at taillights... you lost. I see TOO many guys getting out of cars with big smiles when they are in positions 2 thru 10. I understand the concept of finishing well but now it's geting in the way of the true goal, winning races. I know of no other sport where one team or person celebrates the end of the year when another person or team has 8 TIMES AS MANY WINS! How'd you like to get beaten 8 times to 1 as a boxer and tell they other guy you're the REAL champ because you led more rounds???
A sport that rewards mediocrity is going to run into trouble sooner or later. I have spoke to others who feel the same way. It's not like this is the first time but this year really makes it evident with one driver with 8 wins behind drivers with 1 or 2.
Here's another example straight from the NASCAR site
"Mike Wallace earned 150 points for his sixth-place finish. Sterling Marlin, who finished seventh, earned 146 for the effort and picked up five more for leading a lap. His total points earned: 151, one point better than the guy who finished in front of him."
NOBODY should be able to make up a position on the track because of laps led, they need to spread out the points between ALL places. Especially 1st and 2nd, it's very hard to win and there should be a reward. Why do burnouts on the infield when the guy behind you got as many or more points???
They way it is currently setup theoretically a driver could win 34 of the first 36 races and if a driver managed to run second for all 36 races HE would be champ not the driver who won 34 races. All that needs to happen is for the second place driver to be equal or better in laps led points and for the big winner to blow up or crash finishing last in the last 2 races. Those last 2 races the guy who won 34 times only gets 34 points a race for 68 total and the other guy gets 340 for 2 second place finishes. He makes up the 170 points he lost while being beaten THIRTY FOUR TIMES!
Sure it's ridiculous and theoretical but NO sport should be setup with even a possibility like that. I think this season illustrates very wellwhat CAN happen.
Look at the standings, wins are a NON-FACTOR
Link: Winston Cup points
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 | kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5764 NW Oregon 
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2003-10-07 65746
I enjoy racing but don't follow it very closely, however I must say that the NASCAR scoring system as you described it STINKS. Winners should feel like winners and losers should feel like they lost. This system reminds me of the trend in grade schools of not keeping score so nobody feels bad at the end of the game. Yech. ....
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 | AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144 
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2003-10-07 65747
Like many other "sports" this has become a business and business takes the priority over the sport for the owners. Winning and losing probably became less important when the last driver that had run moonshine at one time or another retired.
This is not isolated. I am not nearly as big a fan of baseball since the major league strike. Auto racing seems headed in a similar direction. If you want to see autoracing sport, look to the guys that race on the weekend with their own cars supported by their own money. This is all about winning and losing.
Check out the Baja 1000 that is coming up in a few weeks. The notables will be "First overall" and "First" in each racing car class. There is an organization called SCORE, but only the professional owners care who is the SCORE champion for the year. ....
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 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4297 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-10-07 65769
I had no idea we had so many of Rush's latest political demographic groups! First it was "Soccer Moms" and now it is NASCAR Dad's. ;-) I liked the old NASCAR without restrictor plates and so many restrictions. Made things more exciting. Although the last big brawl was pretty interesting but I think that is taking the sport in the wrong direction, kinda like "professional wrestling". ....
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 | gauthier
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 148
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2003-10-07 65779
No doubt about it,they should give the 1st and second place guys bonus points,of say 25 points or so for first and 15 for second,they should also make all cars that have been tore up and are behind the leader so many laps head home. Richard Gauthier ....
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| F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2003-10-07 65780
I really enjoy racing so I guess I am a NASCAR dad. I just think that the business side is getting in the way. I understand advertisers want their car "out front" so staying in the camera view of the top 10 cars is key. By making the rewards for victory (or even moving up a place) so small they discourage the aggressive driver from taking to many chances and taking their "Ad" out of the race.
I hope Ryan Newman keeps winning and finishes a distant 2,3 or 4th to a guy that he has 10 times as many wins as. Maybe this will force a change.
....
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 | plots1
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 563 mo 
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2003-10-07 65782
First is first and second is the first loser! ....
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| AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-10-08 65805
Maybe the advertisers should offer a cash bonus to the driver and team that stays in the top 10 and the racing points can reflect the win and loss.
If I was setting up the points scale, I would probably drop the points by 25% for each position down from first place.
100; 75; 56; 42; 32; etc. ....
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| BH3131
Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 20 NC
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2003-10-08 65810
There has been alot of talk through the garage about a possible point system change on the horizon. Most of the concerns are the same as the ones mentioned here. NASCAR is traditionally slow in making changes, which often is hard to accept, but when you look at their overall track record, and the way they have managed the growth of the sport, I have to say that they have done an excellent job. There are definitly some times that it is hard for me to see straight over some of the stuff they do.
I was reading an article the other day about the point system, and what they had done was used the F1 system, the CART system and one other, and in all three cases the #17 car was leading the points. Some of the other positions did change. But overall it was close. This was just a few weeks back, but since then the #17 has had two terrible finishes and the #12 has done well, so I don't know what it would look like now, however I think it would remain close.
One thing that I can tell you without a dought, is that those guys are fighting for a win as hard as you can imagine. When they are out there in the heat of battle, they want to win, and that is what they are focused on. It is the crew guys that are usaully on the side of getting a good finish. Now NASCAR has put them on notice for being over aggresive on the track and I am sure that comes into play.
I guess when you look at being a winner of a one-on-one event or second out of 43 there is a difference. Yes you lost, but you did beat 41 other guys. As far as when they get out of the cars after the race and sound happy about being 2nd or 5th,I think because the race is so long, you normally know how good your car is about halfway through. You try and keep up with the track and the weather and how that is effecting your car, and make the right adjustment on your last stop to get the best finish you can. Some times that darn track position is everything and you have to stay out or just take 2 tires. When the race is over, those guys knew about where they were going to finish a long time ago, maybe that is why it is easier to swallow. This past week, the #9 refused post race interviews because he was so upset about having the best car there and finishing second.
Just a thought.
....
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| F350Lawman
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 411 Goshen, NY
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2003-10-08 65854
Don't get me wrong I love NASCAR. The growth of the sport shows that they have made many of the right moves. On this one I have to say they are off base. There should never be a chance of a guy winning 8 or more races and finishing behind guys with only 1 or 2 wins.
If you look at the point system this year we have a chance that one guy could end up winning 10 or more races and losing. If Kenseth's one win had been a second he could still be beating a guy with close to 10 wins. Lucky he got the win or it would look even worse for NASCAR's point system.
I could care less who wins the championship I would just like it to see it be the guy with the most wins or at least that you'd have to be close to the top guy win-wise.
I don't think that these drivers or crews do anything but bust their buts trying to win but if it's a decision at the end of the race that could mean a big drop in position or not finishing the current point system has to way heavily. It's the old risk vs. reward thing. If you go for the win the lack of any real points bonus for the win has to factor in to the strategy. If you had a big jump in points from 2nd to 1st or even 5th thru 1st it would have to influence your plans and incourage risk taking. I don't mean crazy moves but situations like Ryan Newman gambling with fuel mileage.
I just want to feel like the Winston Cup champ is the driver who had the best year not that he happened to milk a point system. I want wins! :) ....
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